Curse

Sekkira · May 06, 2005, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Me... I want to still be able to play Guild Wars 30927983275039749: omg when will this end?...

The Law · May 06, 2005, 03:31 PM // 15:31

It's 5/6/05 and I'm alive.

Super Awesome War Bunny · May 06, 2005, 03:35 PM // 15:35

The world ends when we get to the end of this....

The IOU · May 06, 2005, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Awesome War Bunny

The world ends when we get to the end of this....

So never?

Quote:

Though it is suspected that there is no pattern in pi and never will be, the hunt continues now that we have the power of supercomputers at our disposal. A trillion digits is possible. Working at 100 million operations per second, the latest achievement I heard is 2 billion 260 million 336 digits, ending in 9896531. Printed in a single line, the number would reach from Auckland to Darwin, Australia. Even looking very carefully, you will see no pattern that suggests an end.

LiquidLithium · May 06, 2005, 04:09 PM // 16:09

what if there was a pattern? big frikin deal. Would the world end or something.

Manderlock · May 06, 2005, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Wow, the world ended, damn I missed it. I was playing GW at that time.

The IOU · May 06, 2005, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquidLithium

what if there was a pattern? big frikin deal. Would the world end or something.

PI is chaos. If there was a pattern to chaos who knows what would happen.

If you dropped a pin 1000 times it is chaos/random which way it points. What if you found a pattern in that randomness?

So in essence you could figure out what lottery balls would fall because of that pattern. In other words you would know the future and could figure out when the world would end also.

That is how I understand it anyway...

Dreamsmith · May 06, 2005, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Actually, pi is irrational (proof), so I believe that means it can't have a pattern. If it did, it wouldn't be irrational.

Typhoon · May 07, 2005, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Without chaos, there is only destiny. (copyrighted by me)

If randomness didn't exist, then the future would exist in the present, which would both exist in the past, all at the same time. I think the resulting logic of such a possible exploit in time would cause the universe to go into a tailspin, unless the existance of such logic goes beyond the universe into some form of higher power.

But then I could have a magical dragon pet to talk to, which would be very cool.

Weezer_Blue · May 07, 2005, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Randomness in real life and whether Pi is irrational or not really have nothing in comon. If we find a repeating pattern to Pi, the world isn't going to blow up. Although, we may fry a few good computers along the way.

Super Awesome War Bunny · May 07, 2005, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Chaos is only the darkness that cloaks everything we do not understand - chaos as an entity unto itself does not exist. As we discover the hidden fragments, they become a part of our paradigm. We understand them, we can calculate them, we can define them. The closer we move towards understanding everything around us, the less and less significance chaos has.

Destiny. Possibly, in the sense that everything has a single chain of events, which leads to an inevitable outcome. Don't confuse a single chain of events with 'pre-destiny'. You still have a choice, in your head, whether or not to finish reading this thread. You can choose to stand up and quack like a duck. But then again, who knows if the choice you make at any given moment couldn't have been calculated, given all the necessary data.

P.S. - TOTP beyonces

ares · May 07, 2005, 06:24 PM // 18:24

"while he was under the influence of hallucinogenic plant compounds, had a firm mathematical basis"

Right....

Dreamsmith · May 07, 2005, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Awesome War Bunny

Possibly, in the sense that everything has a single chain of events, which leads to an inevitable outcome.

Few things are ever the result of a single chain of events, and outcomes are never inevitable. They are, at best, highly probable. Determinism was a quaint 19th century philosophy, but 20th century physics blew it out of the water a long time ago...

Some facts are undetermined not because we haven't been able to determine them yet, but because they are in reality undetermined. Uncertainty is a fundamental feature of reality itself, and thus not always merely a symptom of our ignorance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Awesome War Bunny

But then again, who knows if the choice you make at any given moment couldn't have been calculated, given all the necessary data.

Complete knowledge of a system would not allow you to predict outcomes with certainty, it would only allow you to calculate probabilities with perfect accuracy.

ares · May 07, 2005, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Super Awesome War Bunny, just got served.

Augy · May 07, 2005, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by ares

"while he was under the influence of hallucinogenic plant compounds, had a firm mathematical basis"

Right....

Yep. And then a sober mathematician set out to disprove him. The problem is, the procedural error Watkins found only lead Sheliak to revise the timewave:

http://www.levity.com/eschaton/bombshell.html

The only real question is if the timewave can be conveniently compared to a subjective analysis of history. At any rate, novelty reaches zero around Dec 21st, 2012, so you better level up quickly.

A11Eur0 · May 07, 2005, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Anyone seeking the definition to chaos and random need only seek out this thread. And not for the true definition alone, but also for an example. Just a bunch of wannabe Einstein/Darwins in here.

Super Awesome War Bunny · May 07, 2005, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

Few things are ever the result of a single chain of events, and outcomes are never inevitable. They are, at best, highly probable. Determinism was a quaint 19th century philosophy, but 20th century physics blew it out of the water a long time ago...

Some facts are undetermined not because we haven't been able to determine them yet, but because they are in reality undetermined. Uncertainty is a fundamental feature of reality itself, and thus not always merely a symptom of our ignorance.

Complete knowledge of a system would not allow you to predict outcomes with certainty, it would only allow you to calculate probabilities with perfect accuracy.

Sure, you can calculate perfect possibilities all day - but if you have *all* necessary data, then you can calculate exact outcomes. Problem is, (and I think this is your point) that it is impossible to gather all necessary data, which leaves us with 'Chaos'. As in quantum physics, the mere act of 'measuring' quantum states, changes the original outcome. It simply can't be done. But it doesnt' change the fact that the answers are there, we just can't get to them (yet

) .

And yes, everything lives through a single chain of events. Your life up to this very moment is a result of one single chain of events, albeit twisted beside and acted upon by an infinite number of other 'single chain of events'. It's a very basic principle - every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you knew every single action of a given moment, you could know every single reaction.

Dreamsmith · May 08, 2005, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Awesome War Bunny

Sure, you can calculate perfect possibilities all day - but if you have *all* necessary data, then you can calculate exact outcomes. Problem is, (and I think this is your point) that it is impossible to gather all necessary data, which leaves us with 'Chaos'.

Actually, no, that was not my point. My point is, even if you do have all the data, you still cannot calculate exact outcomes. Some things are not determined, and true randomness does exist. Determinism has long since been demonstrated to be false.

Quote:

As in quantum physics, the mere act of 'measuring' quantum states, changes the original outcome. It simply can't be done. But it doesnt' change the fact that the answers are there, we just can't get to them (yet

) .

I'm afraid your understanding of quantum physics is lacking here. The fact of the matter is, the answers aren't there. Again, some things really are undetermined. Again, uncertainty is a fundamental feature of the universe, not merely a symptom of our lack of complete information. Even with complete information, there is still uncertainty. It's not that we cannot know the exact position of an electron, rather it's that the electron doesn't have one! The double-slit experiment, quantum tunneling, and much more demonstrates the fact that uncertainty does not merely exist because we don't have all the data, it's because in reality some things are really undetermined. It's not that the actual answer is there, but we can't get at it, rather, it's that there's no "actual answer" to get at! If there was, the outcome of the double-slit experiment would be quite different from what we observe, and quantum tunnelling (among other things) would not occur.

Quote:

And yes, everything lives through a single chain of events. Your life up to this very moment is a result of one single chain of events, albeit twisted beside and acted upon by an infinite number of other 'single chain of events'.

Nope. Virtually everything that happens is a result of multiple chains of events. Many different things come together at every event, factors coming into the play from many different and previously unrelated chains of events. Nothing beyond extremely short-lived phenomena at subatomic scales is ever the result of only one single chain of events.

Quote:

It's a very basic principle - every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you knew every single action of a given moment, you could know every single reaction.

Nope, again, this quaint 19th century notion was blown out of the water completely by physics in the 20th century. Complete knowledge of everything would not allow you to accurately predict the reaction from every action. Some reactions are more probable than others, but no reaction is certain, even given complete and total knowledge of all events and inputs into the system.

Tharkon · May 08, 2005, 10:38 AM // 10:38

It never ended :/ To bad for the universe...

Super Awesome War Bunny · May 08, 2005, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

Actually, no, that was not my point. My point is, even if you do have all the data, you still cannot calculate exact outcomes. Some things are not determined, and true randomness does exist. Determinism has long since been demonstrated to be false.

Bold statement considering no one has determined whether or not 'true randomness' exists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

I'm afraid your understanding of quantum physics is lacking here.

Who does understand them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

The fact of the matter is, the answers aren't there. Again, some things really are undetermined. Again, uncertainty is a fundamental feature of the universe, not merely a symptom of our lack of complete information. Even with complete information, there is still uncertainty. It's not that we cannot know the exact position of an electron, rather it's that the electron doesn't have one! The double-slit experiment, quantum tunneling, and much more demonstrates the fact that uncertainty does not merely exist because we don't have all the data, it's because in reality some things are really undetermined. It's not that the actual answer is there, but we can't get at it, rather, it's that there's no "actual answer" to get at! If there was, the outcome of the double-slit experiment would be quite different from what we observe, and quantum tunnelling (among other things) would not occur.

Your placing a lot of weight in thinking that we know all there is to know about this science.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

Nope. Virtually everything that happens is a result of multiple chains of events. Many different things come together at every event, factors coming into the play from many different and previously unrelated chains of events.

Re-read my statement. You're saying exactly what I said. Your life to this very moment is a single chain, acted upon by infinite other 'single chains' - i.e. multiple chains. You must consider that there are an infitesmal number of components within that chain - each component having another infitesmal number of components, etc, etc. What you may not be seeing is that 'multiple chains of events' is nothing more than a gathering of 'single chains of events'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

Nothing beyond extremely short-lived phenomena at subatomic scales is ever the result of only one single chain of events.

Now we're getting somewhere...take that a little further.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

Nope, again, this quaint 19th century notion was blown out of the water completely by physics in the 20th century. Complete knowledge of everything would not allow you to accurately predict the reaction from every action. Some reactions are more probable than others, but no reaction is certain, even given complete and total knowledge of all events and inputs into the system.

Too bad Einstein didn't live long enough to prove his point.